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Do you listen to all the experts on podcasts and think no wonder they're experts? They're awesome. They're smart. They're ... stop right there. You're awesome. You have a story to tell, and there really is no one like you. Fellow normal humans Dalia Ramahi and Jordan Drayer share what they've learned in hopes of inspiring you to find your unique voice. This is the Blooming Voices Podcast. Go to bloomingvoices.com for more information. Now let's get to it.

• 0:29 - 0:33 
Hi guys. Welcome to the blooming voices podcast. I'm Jordan Drayer.

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And I'm Dalia Ramahi and we are so excited to have you join us for another episode. Thank you. Yes,.

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Today is, um, so this might be kind of difficult for some people, but I wanna talk about growth in coming to terms with religion.

• 0:51 - 0:53 
Ooh. Yes. Okay. Let's do it.

• 0:53 - 1:33 
So like I was a per I was not atheist, but I was, I was like, if a person has a religion, then they're just a blind follower. And like they're probably stupid and, and stuff like that. And like, I, I just always just hated religion for such a long time. And I credit like being not really raised religiously as my, the, the, how I became so tolerant, but now I'm like of a different opinion. I, I believe that a person can be also tolerant even if they were raised in a religion and yeah, like, yeah, like, like Dalia <laugh> is an example and it's just, I don't know how I, why I was so against it.

• 1:34 - 1:50 
I, this most maybe cuz of growing in the south of the fire of brimstone ideology, like it kind of scared me and I, I just, I was even scared of the idea of heaven cuz I was like, who'd wanna be in one place forever. That sounds so scary. And or that you couldn't escape. I don't know that, that, that kind of idea. Escape, escape.

• 1:50 - 1:53 
Scared me. Escape heaven. <laugh> yeah. Oh wow. Yeah.

• 1:53 - 2:29 
And so I don't know, like after 2017, um, like I went on a trip to Israel and learned a bunch of more stuff and I was like, oh, it's not so bad. And I found cuz I had always been wanting the community part of it of going to a place of worship and having the community and these extra adults that you can rely on that are not your parents and like other kids that don't go to your school. And so it's, it's just opened me up in so many ways as far as like thinking about volunteering and more like I wanna get involved and do something for the community and ethics and things like that.

• 2:29 - 2:42 
Like not that I feel like I was unethical before, but now I'm more motivated to go do something. Not because I think someone's gonna like strike me down. But I guess maybe because the language is around me more often that I'm just like, I should do something too.

• 2:43 - 3:14 
Um, I think that's beautiful. And I think what you're describing is a natural evolution of when you start to find love and I'm not talking about romantic love, mm-hmm <affirmative> with another human being. What I'm talking about is self love, a spiritual love, a connection. And I think that religion is so beautiful and can be used to bring that out if we're all, you know, truly embodying the principles and the values of yeah.

• 3:14 - 3:59 
That religion. And I'm not talking about, you know, religious people. Like for me, I see a difference between religious people and pious people. And um, I don't consider myself religious at all by any stretch of the man. I am not religious. But when I, when I think of piety, whatever the actual technical definition of it is to me, a pious person is someone who embodies those values and who lives them or tries to live them as best as they can without bearing, you know, like that like religious language here, I'm gonna bar it for a second false witness mm-hmm and um, uh, fake humility in front of others, you know?

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• 3:59 - 4:30 
Yeah. And, and what I mean is wrapping yourself around religion as a way to shove it down other people's throat. Yeah. Telling, saying, you know, and, and here's the thing and I get why you might have been skeptical about religion in the past, because I know I have a lot of friends who are that way as well. The reason the thing that turns people off of religion, regardless of the religion, all religions are guilty of extreme violence. Yeah. They've all taken their turns in history. You cannot say one, religion is more violent than the other because it's not true.

• 4:31 - 4:45 
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> even a peaceful religion has their history of violence against others that are not practicing like them. And so whatever you wanna say about that, argue it as much as you want, you're diluting yourself. So I'm just gonna put it right out.

• 4:45 - 4:47 
There. Yeah. So it's the people. Yeah. That's what, so.

• 4:47 - 4:56 
The people turn religion into something violent. Religion itself is a tool to make our lives better to give us structure. Right.

• 4:56 - 5:04 
That's just like any, like, you know, like an, I don't know, let's say anime, like the fans that become so rabid and like attack anybody that it's.

• 5:04 - 5:36 
Because here's the thing, you know? And I, and I get it and I don't wanna, I hate the term of like judging people of where they're at, because so ma like, if I imagine if, uh, you know, like, you know, you knew me back when you hated religion or whatever, God knows why you would've thought about me. Right. But like, what I'm saying is I know you don't judge people that way. I don't judge people that way, but it's so easy to wanna judge people for, for who you think they're representing and not see the actual human in that person.

• 5:36 - 5:56 
Right. Yeah. I think cause, and we're not remember guys, we're not talking about politics here. We're just simply talking about from a spiritual and religion perspective. <affirmative> and I know that the two tend to get confused because we see now, especially in our country today, so many people trying to rap religion with politics, especially on the right. But that's not what we're talking about here.

• 5:56 - 6:00 
I don't really know if they do that in other well in European countries, I'm not. Oh, but.

• 6:00 - 6:02 
The reality is they do that all over the world,.

• 6:02 - 6:23 
But any, yeah, like back then. Yeah. Like if I met like one, my, my friend, my two of my friends I'm thinking of that were like always going to church and stuff. Not, I would, I didn't hate them. I just like, I don't know in a way I, I, I guess I felt sorry for them that, oh, they go to church. Oh yeah. Like that kind of thing. But like today it'd be like, no, I mean, okay, good, good for you.

• 6:23 - 6:59 
Because, so, so what I was saying earlier about, you know, you found your love is because I don't know why religion tends to do this. And when we're taught as a, as kids, if you grew up in any kind of religious household, whether it's mildly religious or super religious mm-hmm <affirmative> and anyway, religion was ju took some shape in your house. Like even if it was just brought up, say you were, uh, like you were just brought up Christian or Catholic or Muslim or Jewish or whatever. Like even if the religion was even a small part, you'll, you'll see what I'm talking about in the, in most people, the way they wanna raise children is through the fear of religion.

• 7:00 - 7:07 
You better stay on course, you better do this. Right. Or you're gonna burn in hellfire for all eternity or the devils are gonna come.

• 7:07 - 7:40 
And I don't know whatever belief it is, you know, every religion is different, right? So like we're taught to fear it. And so a lot, so people react in two ways, they double down and become Sheeples where they don't question anything. And they just try to follow everything to a T and just put blinders on. And then you have, of course there's other groups of people, but I'm just talking about two groups of people right now. And then you have people who turn, turn their back away from it because they're like, this is too intense, too rigid. I don't like the idea that I have to fear everything.

• 7:40 - 8:11 
Yeah. And then you have people as they grow. Well, this is how I was growing up. I thought everything I did was gonna send me to hell <laugh> yeah. I thought there was nothing I could do, um, to be good enough. And then as I went, as I got older, went to college and stuff, I started to find my love for God and my own spirituality. And that fear went away. And then I just found this loving relationship with God. That is my relationship with him. And that no one can tell me is right or wrong.

• 8:11 - 8:19 
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you just find your way. Yeah. And then you find your community when you start to find your way and you start to feel at peace.

• 8:19 - 8:38 
I know, like I still have this idea of like, well in teaching kids, like who have, cuz I really liked what I learned about the Drew's religion in like Northern Israel where they don't like allow their kids to be a part of their like religion until they're 16 when the kids are old enough to kind of understand what they're getting into. But,.

• 8:38 - 8:39 
But Drews aren't Jewish or Muslim.

• 8:40 - 8:54 
No, they're a completely other thing. Yeah. But so I, but the idea of letting kids choose cuz like every other religion, it's like, okay, you're being baptized before you can even speak, you're having a bris before you can speak. And like, um, you don't have much choice. I.

• 8:54 - 9:14 
Think for, I, I get that. And, but I don't, I personally, I guess I don't see anything wrong with that. And of course you want your kids to grow up with your values and if your values are wrapped up in religion, that's what happens. Right. So I get like having kids choose.

• 9:14 - 9:15 
Yeah. Like I know.

• 9:15 - 9:36 
I, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with, you know, I mean like what are we supposed to like, I, I, to take it to extreme, let kids choose everything. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and it's like, they can decide when they're adults, if that's what they wanna to. And I think what makes them wanna stay or leave or, or, or whatever is based on how they're raised.

• 9:37 - 10:08 
Yeah. I know. I think cause like I think about both now because like back a long time ago, I would've been like, well, they're being corrupted into thinking that they need this, but yeah. I can see both cuz you want to yeah. Like you enjoy this religion and its values and ethics and that's the best way. Like just the same way as adults don't have an instruction book for kids. Like you wanna raise your kids. Well, well this religion worked for me, so I'm gonna give it to my kid. And, and then yeah, hopefully you raise them right. That they still think. And maybe they can exactly. At some point they'll be like, uh, this doesn't work for me.

• 10:08 - 10:11 
I'm gonna go to the other religion or not, no religion at all.

• 10:12 - 10:24 
You know? Um, there's so many things that we can, we're allowed to question things in religion. We're allowed to question practices. We're allowed to question processes. We're allowed to.

• 10:24 - 10:25 
Some religions people.

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Yeah. What do you mean some.

• 10:27 - 10:30 
Like, cuz I don't know in some of the really extreme Christian ones, you can't question anything,.

• 10:31 - 11:04 
But that's again extremism. That's not, that's not um, that's not actual religion, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's a cult. That's that's people putting limits on knowledge. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> that's people who are afraid of what it would look like for someone to think something differently. And you know what that fear again is what causes some people to wanna turn away from religion, right. Or that you always see it. Like, you know, adults saying they hate religion. They don't believe in God, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 11:04 - 11:41 
Right. Because of, of such rigidity. And I, and I cannot believe for the life of me that God needs us to live. So a dearly and, and rigidly, like we have a human mind that is capable of being flexible and melding and, and, and being shaped and changing all the time. So why, so why as people do we think that religion has to look, feel, be practiced in one way only, you know, and I'm talking about as a Muslim, uh, there are certain things in every religion that are like non-negotiable right.

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• 11:41 - 11:43 
Yeah. Like not killing.

• 11:43 - 12:16 
Yeah. And, and, and like the belief steal, like in Islam belief in one God, there is no equal to him. You know, there is no person elevated to his level. There's one God. Right? Yeah. And, uh, like that is a non-negotiable in the religion. If you, if you do not believe that, then you are outside of the faith. Okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, um, so there are, so there are some things, but then, you know, there are different schools of the, of practices where people, I think struggle is with the practices.

• 12:16 - 12:44 
Yeah. Not the actual belief part because you know, if you believe that there is a God, you know, that, that, you know, uh, we can all do good, blah, blah, blah. Those are wonderful beliefs. You, you believe in a Supreme being that created all this. And, and by the way, I remember one time I spoke to somebody and we were talking about evolution mm-hmm <affirmative> and again, rigid thinking she was another Muslim, for example, she was saying, God created everything, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 12:45 - 13:17 
And the, and she even believed like old Christian beliefs that like, uh, the sun revolved around the earth, you know, the, the earth was the center of the fricking universe. Yeah. And nothing else existed. You couldn't possibly believe in like aliens, blah, blah, blah. And this wasn't that long ago, this was during quarantine. I had this conversation. So I was still shocked that there were people that had these again, not judgment, just a little surprised, you know? Yeah. And, um, when I told her, I believe in evolution, I think that a form of it exists.

• 13:17 - 13:31 
Absolutely. I do believe God sparked everything and created everything. But I, I think that, you know, it is possible that he created a process for everything to unfold. You know, he may have created the first human. Right. But then he created a process for all other future humans to be. I.

• 13:31 - 13:32 
Know that that's my, that's my opinion.

• 13:33 - 13:39 
So I think, so I believe the evolution exists. So maybe he did the same thing with the universe and he allowed it to so like, there's so many ways that.

• 13:39 - 13:42 
Why, why God black and white from B.

• 13:42 - 14:06 
Yeah. So like, you know, it's not mutually exclusive science and religion are not mutually exclusive. So that's another thing that I think that turns people off of religion or makes them think that religious people. But then again, you also see it today in our politics. People are so psycho about trying to, to deny anything that science has to offer as somehow against religion. It's so.

• 14:06 - 14:09 
Stupid. Yeah. Or like debating when does life start, but that let's like a whole other topic.

• 14:10 - 14:44 
And that's, that's purely for control. It's not a real topic that they care about. Even anyone who tells me they're pro-life and they vote Republican. I'm sorry. You're lying through your teeth. You ain't pro-life you're you're also pro control on your brainwash. Yeah. We talked about this. Nope. Nope, Nope, Nope. Yep. Uh, like that is something that you cannot UN unless you show me through your way of life and your values, that you're really pro-life. I don't believe you mm-hmm because then you go and support anti masks and you think that it's okay for people to kill unarmed black men and that insurrectionists didn't really attack the like it's bullshit your pro-life.

• 14:44 - 14:45 
Yeah. Anyway,.

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But so like yeah. The.

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Practice back on track.

• 14:47 - 14:48 
<Laugh> the practices.

• 14:49 - 14:49 
Yeah.

• 14:50 - 15:04 
If one doesn't work, like for example, Orthodox Judaism, the people that don't drive on Shabbat on Saturday, Friday night to Saturday night, they don't write, they don't cook. Like they're they, the women have to cover their hair. And like,.

• 15:05 - 15:07 
Is that observing the Sabbath that we always hear about? Is.

• 15:07 - 15:13 
That what? Yeah. I mean like everybody observes the Sabbath, but in their own way, like, so the ones that do you Sabbath, what.

• 15:13 - 15:15 
Do you observe the Sabbath as well? What do you,.

• 15:15 - 15:17 
But mostly all I do is just light the candles, like <laugh>.

• 15:18 - 15:18 
Oh, got it. Okay.

• 15:19 - 15:46 
Other, other people, they would be like, not like the Orthodox, they're not gonna be cooking. They're not gonna cuz you're not supposed to create anything. You're not supposed to start a fire. Got it. And so like that even includes writing on Shabbat. And so like, okay, if you, in, in terms of practices, if you don't want life to be that strict, then you go to another one, like reform Judaism where you like you make up, oh, this is meaningful to me. I'm gonna take this one and I'm gonna take that, but you don't take the whole thing. <laugh>.

• 15:47 - 16:04 
See. And, and I guess that's unique to Judaism. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, so like again, if that works for you at, um, as a Jewish person, then you go for it. You know what I mean? So like, nothing is set in stone. Well even like learn there's different seek knowledge, like.

• 16:04 - 16:12 
With the different Christian sex, like there's some that don't want music and there's some that allow music. And, and so that's another practice thing.

• 16:13 - 16:14 
You mean like banning music completely.

• 16:15 - 16:37 
In that church? I don't know about the, but so like some of them won't have music during their services. Like others will have a band or something to get people going. And, um, the same in Judaism too, like there's different ones where they'll be like, we don't want music. And so that's a practice thing. So all these different differences that show up and might make you hate something or not, I guess. Yeah. It's just go find another practice then.

• 16:38 - 17:13 
I think, I think that, uh, like you said, at the end of the day, you know, you find your way through religion. Even someone who chooses to be atheist is making a choice, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and they're believing in that choice. And so they're still living their lives by that choice. You know what I mean? So it's, if you feel like you have a moral compass that guides you, then go for it. And, but in terms of religion, that's why I personally, I love religion. I think that it gives people meaning and structure and uh, there's a way to live their lives,.

• 17:14 - 17:36 
You know? Yeah. There's a lot of comfort in just cuz even in 12 step groups, like just a lot of comfort and being able to give up your troubles to something else, like some larger force and be like, absolutely, this is so annoying. And am I gonna get into, am I gonna get this job? I don't know, like God will decide for me. And, and then you can go about your day and be like, well, I'll get the job if I do or don't and exactly.

• 17:36 - 18:07 
You, you take your action steps and then you just surrender the outcome. Like the outcome is none of your business it's either meant for you or not meant for you. You took the steps, it either worked in your favor or it didn't just surrender. It's mm-hmm <affirmative>, there's nothing you can do at that point. You know what I mean? You just keep putting one foot in front of the other trying and that's it. Yeah. And you surrender. That's what I love about. But you know, there's a lot of spiritual people who are not specifically tied to our religion mm-hmm <affirmative> and they're like that too. You know what I mean?

• 18:07 - 18:34 
Yeah. So I think what makes religion special is how connected you are to it spiritually. And I think the more spiritual you are, the more you understand how beautiful it is and um, to see other people for who they are and accept and tolerate, not just tolerate, but truly accept them and see them. You know what I mean? Because you're not at that point, you're not threatened by anyone else's beliefs. You're not insecure about them.

• 18:34 - 18:51 
Well, yeah. And just the, the practice again, like, cuz again, if you had like a spiritual person that's, they're just going along and they, they know how to give things up to the greater power, but they probably have to make up their own rules for, oh this works for me. I'm gonna okay. I feel good when I do this. But if.

• 18:51 - 18:53 
You mean someone who's who, who doesn't have a religion, is that,.

• 18:53 - 19:13 
Yeah, it doesn't have a religion, but is just spiritual. They're like, okay, I'm gonna light candles because this makes me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have incense because, but like if you have a religion, maybe let's say you're not creative. Um, like if you have a religion, like there's some built in rules to be like, oh this will help me be a better person. Cuz they tell me to avoid stealing and this and that. And um,.

• 19:14 - 19:31 
But you know, what's so amazing is that a lot of even like spiritual people who, who are not a religion affiliated, whatever you wanna call it, um, they don't have a specific religion. They will live their principles by the same values and morals that religion religious people do.

• 19:31 - 19:32 
Because it's.

• 19:32 - 20:04 
Become, it's become commonly rooted in our society. Right. For example, we don't wanna hurt each other. We don't wanna don't kill don't steal. Don't lie. Don't bear false witness, all this stuff. Yeah. I mean it's even in, it's even coded in our laws. So that just shows you like, but that, but that being said, it's not because of religion that that exists it's because we came together as a community a long time ago and realized certain things were unacceptable.

• 20:04 - 20:19 
Yeah. Religion came in and added a spiritual component to it that said not only is it unacceptable, but you will burn in hell, you'll get, uh, sins, whatever it is on top of that. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah. So yeah.

• 20:20 - 20:20 
Yeah.

• 20:21 - 20:29 
So I think that's wonderful. That growth is beautiful. Awesome job Jordan. Yes. Yeah. And it's so how do you see this, um, shaping your life, going forward,.

• 20:30 - 20:41 
More dinners, more friends. Like that's kind of the number one thing and just feeling happy. I have all these different people to turn to. And also, I mean, cuz like this,.

• 20:41 - 20:46 
So you, so you, so you've gotten something that you've wanted your whole life, which is a real community. Yeah. Cause I'm still.

• 20:46 - 21:18 
A try. I'm still kinda learning about like, what do I think of God? What do I think of this book? What do I think of that book? Like, uh, that's still something I'm working on, but as far as the rest of the community feeling and the ethics, like yeah. I might be volunteering more and more or like I'm, I'm one of my like older friends invited me to the anti defamation league, the ADL, a dinner for them. And I was like, wow, I never even thought about that. So maybe, you know, it's like I could join something like that in the future or, or who knows.

• 21:18 - 21:22 
Like I just feel more motivated to do stuff for the community.

• 21:22 - 22:01 
Nice. That's good. Good job. I think that that's important. And uh, hopefully that, you know, we can, we can take that to expand it on all communities. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you know what I mean? Like I know like we have to start somewhere, right? Yeah. But I think for me, when I think about it, like it's not to have tunnel vision only one way of thinking or like one group of people that start to matter above everyone else. Mm-hmm <affirmative> do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Cause I know a lot of people that, and I'm not saying this is you, I'm just saying in general, when people think about religion, they only see it through the lens of their people.

• 22:02 - 22:34 
You know what I'm saying? And so that's great and all, but remember that spirituality is about community and seeing everyone for who they are not based on how they practice, what they practice and definitely not what they look like. Yeah. Or especially what they look like practicing. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So yeah. I think that's beautiful. Nice. All right. Thank you. Okay guys. So we had a nice conversation about what religion means to Jordan and her evolution. And if you can relate to it, send us an email and let us know your thoughts.

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• 22:35 - 22:45 
Yes. It would be interesting to hear like similar stories or I don't know, even if you had, if you were raised in a religion, but you had a falling out and now you're coming back to it. Like that'd be interesting to hear too.

• 22:46 - 22:57 
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> absolutely bloomingvoicespodcast@gmail.com, bloomingvoices.com where you can subscribe and listen to this episode and get emails for all future episodes. Yes.

• 22:57 - 23:01 
Thank you, Twitter. If you want to play around with us. Thank you so much.

• 23:03 - 23:15 
That's our show. Didn't get enough of the twins? Go to bloomingvoices.com for more information and let us know what you thought of the episode. Twitter, Instagram, email, we've got the works. We'll see you next Wednesday.