Victor: Do you listen to all the experts on podcasts and think, "no wonder they're experts. They're awesome. They're smart. They're..." -- stop right there! You're awesome. You have a story to tell, and there really is no one like you. Fellow normal humans Dalia Ramahi and Jordan Drayer share what they've learned in hopes of inspiring you to find your unique voice. This is the Blooming Voices Podcast. Go to bloomingvoices.com for more information. Now let's get to it.

Dalia: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Blooming Voices. I'm Dalia Ramahi.

Jordan: I'm Jordan Drayer, and I'm so excited to see you guys or well, imagine you guys listening. So, um, but today here we are smiling and laughing, but we're going to talk about aggression actually. So confronting or standing up for yourself in the face of someone being aggressive towards you, especially for us women, aman.

Dalia: Yeah. And that's very important. How do we speak up for ourselves or what is the best way to handle situations when we experience that kind of aggression? And, um, to start us off, I will talk about an experience I had during quarantine early this year. It feels so long ago.

Jordan: I know. 

Dalia: Um, like we're already at the end of September. Crazy, but, um, anyway, so I had this experience where, uh, uh, you know, as you know, by now we're voice artists, voice actors. And, um, I wanted to upgrade my studio, my home booth a little bit. And so I did some research and I followed this company online, and I found that they do custom doors. So I thought I needed a door for my booth. And, um, so I reached out to them online, chatted with, um, an employee. And we talked about my needs, and I expressed my interest in a very specific custom door that they had shared on Instagram. So they told me that it was possible, that they can do it for me. And I was excited. I asked them if the product that had put in my cart was right, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said, yes, and we'll customize it. So story over. 

And, uh, shortly after I get the product in the mail, and it is this heavy, heavy door, not customized at all. And I'm confused. So I go, um, online, I send them an email, ask them, and they're like, oh, uh, that's not what you ordered. And, um, I saw that the product they had given me was a discontinued product. Anyway, long story short, they were willing to work with me because clearly they made an error, and I was cool with it. 

Jordan: That's good.

Dalia: So they were going to go ahead and customize my door. And they asked for my measurements, which I found weird that they didn't ask for it the first time, but I'm like, okay, I didn't know the process. Right?

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: So I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I gave them the measurements of my door. I sent them a video and picture of the booth with the door open and with the door closed, you know, you know, all the stuff that they asked for. And I have the emails, um, and it was all done through email. I'm waiting. And they said, oh, maybe -- I think, I, I have to go back to the timeline to look back, but let's just say this was around the February, March timeframe. I can't really remember right now. Um, but, uh, they said that it would be ready in like 14 days, and 14 days came and went, and I didn't hear anything. So I sent them follow-up email, didn't get an immediate response, sent another follow-up email. You know, it just kind of went like that. I had to keep following up with the company.

Finally, they committed to bringing it on -- by a certain date. And I was really excited because now it's been over a month since, um, they said that they would deliver it. I was told that the owner himself would come personally and deliver it to my home because they're not that far from where I live. So I thought, okay, cool. I mean, I offered to return the previous product and drive, um, to their company to return it. And they said, oh no, you don't have to do that. He'll come pick up the prod- -- the old product that was incorrect and give you your new door.

So I'm like, that's great. That's really nice of them, right? 

Jordan: That's really nice.

Dalia: So I'm so excited day of, and it's such a beautiful day. I have all the windows open, and also because of COVID, do you know what I mean? I wanted all the windows open. Anyway, he comes to my home and I'm so excited to let him in. I show him up to my booth, but he's empty handed. So he said, okay, let me look at this booth. And then he starts hemming and hawing and whatever the expression is and says, oh, the door won't work. And I said, excuse me? And he said, the door won't work on this booth. He's like, I thought your door opens from the outside. And at this point I'm very confused --

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: -- because -- and then he told me the measurements were wrong. And then I was like, uh, uh, okay. Um, I emailed you, everything. You confirmed that you got it. I have the video and the pictures in the emails to show you that I sent you. I don't understand how you would think the door opens on the outside. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: That was a very innocent question. And then he said, well, you made a mistake. And I said, no. I mean, here's the email where I tell you the exact measurement of the door and show you the picture of, of my studio booth with the door open to the inside. It's very clear. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: You know, you can miss it. And then he tried to gaslight me. I use that word intentionally because he tried to keep saying it was my fault. So at that point I told him, I don't understand what level of incompetence this is, because you customize the door for the person's specific needs. We waited all this time. I was under the impression you were customizing it. And then here you are telling me, you don't even know how a door opens --

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: -- when it's shown to you in a picture?

Jordan: Yeah. This is like their, their work too. Like you think they do this on a daily basis. 

Dalia: And, and they do, according to, um, you know, their site. So, uh, long story short, I called him incompetent, and he got mad. He started raising his voice. I was sitting in my chair, and he started hovering over me leaving no space. At that point, I felt threatened. And as women, we are constantly put in a situation where a man tries to dominate us with physical space when they want to get aggressive. I'm not saying it happens in every situation, but that is a tactic men use to try to dominate the situation without touching the woman. And he was all up in my personal space, hovering over me. There was no room between me and him while I was sitting in the chair and he was standing over me. It was disgusting. At that point, all my hair stood up. I felt threatened. So I stood up, and I yelled at him to back up. And what the hell was he thinking he was doing --

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: -- being that close to me, especially during a pandemic. 

Jordan: Yeah!

Dalia: Do you know what I mean? And as unprofessional as he was, he kept having his mask slip down his nose, and I'm like, dude, come on. We've been at this for a year. You know how to put a mask --

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: -- on your face at this point. So he kept getting aggressive. He said, okay, I'm going to show you. I'm going to prove to you that you're wrong. He stormed out of my house, came back with a tape measure, and he measured the door, and I'm like, oh, shocker, you measured the same thing that I sent you in an email again, right there. Um, and he told me, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works. I'm like, okay, fine. So then he stormed back outside again. I, by the way, during this process, I was asking him, can you please just bring the custom door from the car?

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Because he said it was in the car. And I'm like, let's just look at it and see what we can do, if it's salvageable with what you created. And he said, no, no, no, no. We'll have to come up with something else. And I'm like, I don't want to hang a cover outside of my booth. That was the whole reason I asked for an actual door cover. I'm like the booth is small. The door opens on the inside. Why would I want another layer of a really huge heavy blanket outside of the door? 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Do you get what I'm trying to say? That that was the whole point of creating an actual cover for the door specifically because it goes over the door.

Jordan: Yeah. 

Dalia: Not over the booth. Anyway, he wouldn't bring the cover out. I don't want to drag this story on. Needless to say, he came back with the original receipt and he says, you didn't even order the right product. I was doing a favor. I'm like, I don't understand what this favor is. I paid for it. You guys agreed to deliver the correct product. He started yelling at me. I asked him to go downstairs. I had to run downstairs in my own home just so I can -- because you know, my, my, uh, upper level is a townhouse. So it's really small and kind of narrow. So I had to, I basically had to force myself into the hallway from where he was blocking me and make my way downstairs, just so he could start following me downstairs. I didn't want to be upstairs anymore 'cause he was yelling at this point.

He starts yelling and going off that I don't know what I'm talking about. And um, you know, um, he did everything he was supposed to. And my sister, Dana, who's in her room on a meeting, on a conference call, you know, with her clients starts, hearing how loud he is. So she gets off her call and comes running outside to see what the hell is going on. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: And she sees this big tall guy yelling at me and still not trying to give me space. And she says, stop it, move away from her. What are you doing? You know what I mean? 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: And so my sister thinks I'm being threatened. So she starts yelling at him because she doesn't know what's going on. And she -- and she's scared for me. Anyway, I ask him to leave. And I said, you know what? Since you won't bring down the cover, I demand a full refund. You know, you're not the kind of person I want to do business with ever again. I don't want to -- I don't feel safe with you in my home. You need to leave. He said, I don't know if I can give you a refund. He was so cagey. And by the way, all this happened without me knowing he was the owner of the company at the time. 

Jordan: Oh. 

Dalia: I only found out he was the owner later. So he refused to confirm that he would give me a refund. He refused to give me our product, all the while he's holding the old product in his hand and he's walking outside. And so, oh, he doesn't walk outside first. I tell him, I'm calling the police if you don't leave. So he starts yelling at me some more and he like throws the receipt. I actually take the receipt from him, and I'm like, leave right now. This is, this is not the way I want to do this. And so, um, he finally walked outside. My sister and I go to the driveway and I said, I, I'm just curious, do you even have the product? Do you even have it? Like, why did you come to my home? And my sister happens, 'cause he's in front of our driveway. She looks into his back window. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: She didn't touch anything. She just looks to see if there's, uh, if there's anything there because she thought maybe he was just a scammer or something. Anyway, he slaps her hands away, and he says, don't touch my car. And she's like, I wasn't touching your car. And you know what the sad part is? We have all this recorded because we have, uh, security cameras as well. He tried to lie about it. And on his online response to me when I offered online feedback. When I said, I'm calling the police, that's it. You don't touch other people physically. And this has just gone way too far. And he said, fine, call the police. I'll be waiting for them to tell them what psychos you are. Okay. I have the proof, you know what I mean? 

Jordan: Yeah!

Dalia: Um, so anyway, uh, as soon as I started calling the police, dialing the non-emergency number, he drove off.

Jordan: With your stuff.

Dalia: With both products and no confirmation of a refund. I was so shooken up at that. You know, I feel like I'm downplaying what happened, but you know, in that moment, guys, I know I'm talking a lot, but I felt so threatened. I felt so scared. And I hated that this stranger came into my home and made me feel unsafe. And every fiber in my being did what we, as women feel when we're threatened. It wanted to fight back. And I used my voice to speak firmly, but I was in my home. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: So I felt cornered. And I felt like the only choice I had was to fight. And I fought by posturing, you know what I mean? And raising my voice and telling him to leave and threatening, to call the police. That's what I had at my disposal. You know what I mean? 

Jordan: I'm glad, I'm proud --

Dalia: But anyway --

Jordan: -- I feel like, I mean, I can feel the like, oh my God, like this, the threatened and like, not knowing what to do. And like, 'cause as like, we don't want to be mean as women and stuff like that. But like when you're, when you have to fight, you do, and then you feel bad for it afterwards sometimes. 

Dalia: Yeah.

Jordan: It's like, oh, I yelled at him. Like, did, did you feel bad afterwards for that -- did you feel somewhat guilty?

Dalia: No, I did not feel guilty. 

Jordan: Good.

Dalia: What I felt was shame. 

Jordan: Oh, okay.

Dalia: I felt shame because I allowed someone to treat me like that. And even though I'm not responsible or -- and I can't control the actions of another person, I felt anger that I felt like somehow I invited that. Do you know what I mean? And that is such, I don't want to say normal, but so many women --

Jordan: But it is.

Dalia: -- internalize, um, trauma like that. 

Jordan: Yeah --

Dalia: And we blame ourselves for it.

Jordan: Because society does. 

Dalia: Exactly.

Jordan: Society always blames the victim, and yeah, like I guess in a way it is normal. 

Dalia: Yeah. So I sat with that. And then shortly later I sent him a long email and I told him, um, this is not the way I want to do business. I said, I want to speak to the manager, the owner, something. Because remember at this time, I didn't know he was the owner. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: They just told me this guy was going to come. And I said, owner when I shared this story, because later I found out he was the owner of the company. But anyway, I told him, you basically robbed me because you said you can't give me a refund in my home. You took both products, you have my money. And then you got hostile and aggressive. To me, that's robbery. You know what I mean? Uh, because it's violent, and you take something from some other person. It's different than burglary. You know what I mean? That happens when a person's not home. But the point is, after a while he responded and says, I'm giving you a refund. Ooh, great. I was so happy for my refund, but the damage was done at that point, Jordan.

Jordan: Yeah.  Well, at least, I mean, something happened in the end. 

Dalia: Yeah. Silver lining.

Jordan: So, okay. So this was one really horrible story. As far as takeaways and/or what can a person do? Like if you don't feel like you have the courage to stand up and yell back and, and what, what can you do?

Dalia: Well, you know, whether, um, uh, at first of all, violence is never the answer. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: That's how I feel. Um, so I wasn't going to go swing for the guy or whatever. Even when he put his hand on my sister, you know, we yelled.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: You know what I mean? And I said, I'm calling the police, that's it. But I don't believe first of all, violence is the answer. 

Jordan: No. 

Dalia: I believe you need to defend yourself. Absolutely. You know what I mean?

Jordan: Yeah, like if they came attacking you, then you have the right to attack -- to hit back. But don't be the one that starts it. I wouldn't do that. 

Dalia: Yeah.

Jordan: Plus if it's a man --

Dalia: And we want to keep our cool.

Jordan: Yeah. 

Dalia: And by the way, he was so much bigger than me. Like he was taller. He was like broader.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Like I think I'm strong, but like, come on. 

Jordan: I know.

Dalia: You know what I mean?

Jordan: Yeah. Like it's just, it's just sad. 'Cause like, even as like, I don't know, a teenager when we'd be like wrestling, playing with like our dad, like just the way he can, like in just playing, hold me down. It's like, okay. Wow. Okay. I'll never be able to fight a man off. 'Cause my dad's a normal sized man. Like --

Dalia: Exactly.

Jordan: -- not tall, not small.

Dalia: If we took like self-defense or weight -- if we like learn -- you know, there's a lot of, um, uh, physical techniques you can learn to disarm or to fight off somebody who's bigger than you. But I didn't know those at the time. Right? So, but here's a takeaway I have. I let myself feel threatened. I lost my, my composure. I got scared. And I reacted from fear.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Now talk -- and so it's not guilt. But what I did is learn something about myself, is that I have a long way to go. Uh, I can work on deescalating the situation rather than reacting to it from a place of fear. 

Jordan: Yeah. Because I'm sure --

Dalia: Because if I wasn't afraid, I'm sure I would have been able to talk down the situation a little bit better. 

Jordan: Yeah, exactly. 

Dalia: But because he was aggressive and he made me feel threatened, I reacted like a cornered animal from a place of fear by, by posturing, by threatening to call the police, you know, justifiably for his actions. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: But um, you know, that's something I learned and that, you know, there's always, we can learn tools to deescalate.

Jordan: Yeah. 'Cause otherwise it's like, yeah, you -- from here from where we are now a place of comfort, you can, you can be logical, and you'll be like, well, next time I'm going to do this. But then when you're in the situation, everything changes. And that, that only comes with experience, I think in just like --

Dalia: Absolutely.

Jordan: -- just the same as like music auditions. Like I'm so nervous, but you have to keep auditioning so that you're no longer nervous in auditions is. I dunno, it's not, not that you want to keep being threatened by men so you get used to being threatened by men, but.

Dalia: No, but you're right in the sense that we can practice. There are tools to help us practice conflict resolution. There are tools that help us practice being mindful like meditation, um, tuning into your body and understanding what your triggers are. Like obviously I was triggered by this man yelling at me. Right? So I reacted from a place of fear. So what I'm saying is there are ways that we can learn when we have time to think rationally. And it's in those rational moments that we choose to work on ourselves, not when we're actually in the moment --

Jordan: Yeah --

Dalia: -- you know what I mean? Like it's not going to happen in the moment.

Jordan: No.

Dalia: It's going to happen when you're calm, and you can have time to work on yourself.

Jordan: Yeah. And like you don't, that doesn't mean like speaking sweetly to him or --

Dalia: No.

Jordan: -- but it is talking calm. Okay. I need you to leave. And instead of, you know, like I need you to leave right now. Like something like that.

Dalia: You know what it is at end of the day? I think, and I know I've spoken to other women who had similar aggressive experiences, and I've had other, uh, experiences with male aggression in the past as well. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: So that probably was a trigger for me. You know what I mean? 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: But I think what it is is that, and I'm not blaming all men. So if anyone's listening, please don't misunderstand me. There is a tendency for men to mansplain, to, um, talk down, to dismiss, and to wanna shut up women when they offer contradictory information to what they've decided the narrative is.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: And I'm not saying -- I want to be clear. I'm not saying all men are like this. Absolutely. That's not the case, but that is something that --

Jordan: Happens.

Dalia: -- some or a good portion of men tend to resort to, that kind of, uh, dominating aggressive behavior.

Jordan: Yeah. 

Dalia: That's not okay. I mean, I spoke up about it. I wanted to share this on social media with my VO colleagues. And I found a lot of support. Of course, you know, you're going to have those naysayers, "oh, I know this person. And he would never act this way." 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: "I'm sure that the girl deserved it or, you know, she instigated it or whatever." I mean, the comments are disgusting, but here -- here's the thing. We give zero F's about what other people think of us because they weren't there. 

Jordan: It's true.

Dalia: So when people speculate, it's -- and people want to offer their opinion and they want to be contradictory to you, this is what I realized, because that challenges their reality or what they know of the person, the situation, or the truth that they've allowed themselves to believe.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: But we know firsthand abusers can have a smile on their face, and I'm not calling this guy an abuser. I'm just saying he acted aggressive, but we see a lot of times, you know --

Jordan: Yeah, because there's always those -- yeah, where they'll be like, oh, but he's so cute. Oh, but he's a church, man. 

Dalia: Yes. Oh, he's --

Jordan: It's like --

Dalia: -- he has a smile for everybody. 

Jordan: So, okay.

Dalia: Domestic abuse victims know that that's not the case. You know? 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: And I'm not comparing this to domestic abuse. So I just want to be clear on that either. But what I'm saying is you never know what a person's like. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Dalia: So gaslighting women, when they share their experience of men isn't productive, and we don't need to gaslight ourselves as women by shaming ourselves, guilting ourselves, or believing that we were wrong in some way.

Jordan: Yeah, because I have, I mean, just as like a thing, it's like so many people whenever they're like summing me up when you're doing one of those, like things talking about the other person, they'll be like, well, Jordan would not hurt a fly. And it's like, uh, you don't know me. And like, like I'm vicious on the inside. 

Dalia: Uh-oh, what don't we know?

Jordan: But like, so yeah, just 'cause this guy is smiling and nice doesn't mean you really know him unless like he, he's your brother. I don't know. Even, I guess even your, your siblings though, you can never fully know once you move out. Like, I don't know what goes on in my brother's life on a like 24/7 basis. Like maybe he's done stuff that I don't know. Like I dunno like crazy weird stuff or maybe he's really quite boring, but I mean, no, he's not boring, but like.

Dalia: No, you're absolutely right. I mean, we never know what anyone's capable of, and you know, we can only know ourselves, but unless we're doing the work of being self-aware and, um, tuning in with ourselves, even we don't really know what we're capable of. But we can by understanding who we are and doing internal work, um, you know, like we always talk about personal growth, personal development, checking in with yourself, reflecting. Not just projecting outwards, but really looking like, okay, well, I know I have a tendency to be like this or do this or whatever, you know what I mean? So we can only ever really know ourselves as well as we want to know ourselves. And we definitely can't really know other people. 

Jordan: Oh, as far as, just really quick. 'Cause I'm thinking about Mussar again, which is that Jewish spiritual practice. The teaching is if you can change 1% like in one year, then the work is good. Like you don't have to completely change. Like if you have a problem with anger management or even with being honest, like if you told the truth one time when you would have preferred to lie, then, then the work worked, and maybe like 99 other times you lie. But if you did it one time when you would have done it the other way, then it worked or like you held your tongue this one time. And so the work is working. And so like because change is gradual basically is what I'm saying. And --

Dalia: Yeah.

Jordan: -- and like, so --

Dalia: It's never going to be overnight.

Jordan: Yeah, like we do the spiritual practice for the hope that in the one time that this is going to happen, we're being threatened by a guy, that we do act calmly. 

Dalia: Exactly. Yes. That's so true. The work is gradual. Every little thing that you do to advance yourself adds up. You know, uh, what I, what I've learned, um, through a coach of mine is that sometimes just having the self-awareness is the work, because it's through that self-awareness that eventually your mind starts to open up to other things about yourself, and you naturally want to improve upon them or change them or whatever it is. Right? So, um --

Jordan: Yeah, what is --

Dalia: -- we don't want to have to force ourselves to figure it out. We don't have to force change. Change happens just because we've willed it to happen. We're like, okay, I want to improve. I want to reflect more. I, I, I just want to understand this. And so we start to become self-aware, and through that we change.

Jordan: Yeah. It's like the like AA thing. I think -- I forget exactly what the right word is, but it's either acceptance or acknowledgement is the first step like being, oh, maybe, maybe it is awareness.

Dalia: Okay.

Jordan: But yeah, like awareness is the first step. 

Dalia: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jordan: So good. Okay. 

Dalia: Yep. So thank you, guys --

Jordan: Continuing --

Dalia: -- for listening to that story, but yeah.

Jordan: Yes. Continuing to work, meditate, take classes on whatever your thing is that you're working on. I don't know, like, like I said, like anger management or honesty or being humble or being less humble, something like that. Doing whatever you can.

Dalia: Or learning to speak up for yourself.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Use your voice. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Dalia: Just so, just before we go, that was my thing I liked hiding. Okay. And I think I've mentioned this in another episode, I liked hiding. And so, um, when I experience pain or, um, adversity, I hide it. I don't show it to other people because I didn't want to be vulnerable. And allowing yourself to be strong in your vulnerability can help so many other people, not just yourself, you don't know who it's helping. So for me to be able to share my story with others was a huge step, which is owning my voice in that way.

Jordan: Yeah, it is.

Dalia: So, I mean, we just got to own who we are. Good, bad, ugly, beautiful.

Jordan: It is why we call this Blooming Voices. So hopefully your voices are starting to bloom. 

Dalia: Yes.

Jordan: And thank you for joining us again.

Dalia: Thank you guys. 

Jordan: So, we have all of these contact methods like Twitter, Instagram, email, bloomingvoicespodcast@gmail.com and the website, bloomingvoices.com. Thank you for joining us again.

Dalia: Yeah. And email us if you have any questions or if you want to share your story. We would love to have you on --

Jordan: Yes.

Dalia: -- and inspire us with how you overcame adversity or a challenge or anything. 

Jordan: Yes.

Dalia: We love you guys. See you next time.

Jordan: Thank you! Bye.

Victor: That's our show. Didn't get enough of the twins? Go to BloomingVoices.com for more information and let us know what you thought of the episode. Twitter, Instagram, email, we've got the works. We'll see you next Wednesday.